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[問題討論] 高度反差 VS 國軍特種部隊特展 [複製連結]

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狀態︰ 離線
41
發表於 2013-7-6 20:33:09 |只看該作者
害....就是上樑出問題嘛
30度不出操   戰場會讓你選嗎?

Rank: 4

狀態︰ 離線
42
發表於 2013-7-6 20:38:59 |只看該作者
補上美國官方文件承認國軍參加越戰的節錄

The Republic of China
Nationalist Chinese contributions to the war in Vietnam were limited by extremely sensitive considerations involving the possible reactions of Peking and Saigon to the presence in South Vietnam of Chinese in military uniform. Offers of combat troops from the Republic of China for Vietnam were made early in the war by President Chiang Kai-shek to President Johnson. Later, on 24 February 1964, Chiang Kai-shek again stressed to Admiral Jerauld Wright, Ambassador to the Republic of China, and Admiral Harry D. Felt, Commander in Chief, Pacific, that the United States should plan with the government of the Republic of China for possible use of the republics armed forces against North Vietnam. Dr. Yu Ta-Wei, Minister of Defense, also pursued the subject of troop contributions with Admiral Felt, including discussion of a possible Chinese Nationalist attack on the island of Hainan. The United States was wary, however, of military assistance from the Chinese Nationalists and excluded their government when soliciting the Republic of Korea, the Philippines, and other countries for contributions of noncombat units in uniform. There was some concern on the one hand that the Republic of China would feel offended if left out, but on the other hand the United States was aware of the Chinese Communist view of Nationalist Chinese intervention and decided not to risk provoking Communist China. The United States decided that the dispatch of Nationalist engineer units would not provoke overt Chinese Communist retaliation, even though the move could provide a pretext for intervention at a later date. To preclude the possibility of Chinese Communist interference in the Formosa Strait, or elsewhere for that matter, the United States tried to play down the role of Republic of China military assistance and direct the aid of the republic primarily to the field of civic action.

Assistance from the Republic of China arrived in South Vietnam in the form of an advisory group on 8 October 1964. The mission of this Republic of China Military Assistance Advisory Group, Vietnam, was to furnish political warfare advisers and

[115]


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medical men and to help with the problem of refugees. Three LST crews were also to assist in the waterborne logistical effort. The LSTs belonged to the U.S. Navy port, Keelung, on Taiwan.

Two political warfare advisers were stationed in each of the four corps tactical zones, three advisers at the Republic of Vietnam Armed Forces Political Warfare College in Dalat, and the other three with the Armed Forces General Political Warfare Directorate in Saigon. Sponsored and supported by the US Agency for International Development, the seven-member provincial health assistance team worked in the provincial hospital at Phan Thiet. The Republic of China also provided two C46 aircraft and crews for refugee relief missions in South Vietnam. By the end of 1965 assistance from the Republic of China had been increased to include eighty-six agricultural experts and a nine-man mission to supervise construction and operation of the 33,000-kilowatt power plant located at Thu Duc.

Additional aid was sought from the republic early in 1966 when the United States requested six LSTs for service in South Vietnam. Originally given to the Nationalists under the US Military Assistance Program, the ships were to be manned by Chinese crews in civilian clothing and fly US flags. The United States would bear the cost of crew wages and ship maintenance. The mission of the ships was to fill the need for shallow-draft coastal vessels and help ease harbor congestion. The Republic of China was able to provide only two ships; their transfer took place in April in a low key atmosphere without publicity.

In June General Westmoreland was asked to comment on the possibility of having Chinese Nationalist troops in South Vietnam. Since other Free World forces had been introduced, the prospect could possibly now be viewed in a different light. From a purely military point of view, General Westmoreland believed the use of Chinese Nationalist troops would be highly desirable. Military Assistance Command, Vietnam, would welcome the addition of a well-trained, motivated, and disciplined marine brigade as early as it could be deployed; but from a political point of view, there were still many reservations concerning the introduction of Chinese Nationalist troops into the Vietnamese War. The US Embassy at Saigon declined to make any specific comments or recommendations without first consulting the government of South Vietnam; however, the classification given to the subject made consultation impossible. It was the US Embassys belief that while some key figures in the government of South Vietnam would see the advantages of using troops from the Republic of China there was sufficient cause to believe that a

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Chinese Nationalist involvement might be counterproductive. The embassy thought that while the introduction of Chinese Nationalist troops in South Vietnam probably would cause no change in Chinese Communist strategy, the rest of the world might view the act as a prelude to another war. In addition, the traditional anti-Chinese attitude of the Vietnamese had to be taken into account because it could have a strong bearing on the acceptability of Chinese Nationalist troops to the government of South Vietnam. Weighing both the military and political aspects of the question, General Westmoreland recommended that Republic of China troops be deployed only when the political questions had been resolved.

During 1967 the team of Chinese advisers on electric power was increased to thirty-four and a sixteen-man surgical team was introduced into Vietnam to assist in expanding public health programs. In mid-June 1967, having already obtained Vietnam government approval, the Republic of China military attach?in Saigon wrote General Westmoreland for permission to send four groups of officers to South Vietnam for one months on the-job training. The groups would consist of from eight to ten officers each in the branches of intelligence, artillery, armor, ordnance, and engineering and would be assigned to a compatible US unit. General Westmoreland, with concurrence from the US Embassy, opposed the project for several reasons. First, the military working agreement signed by General Westmoreland and the commanding general of the Republic of China Military Assistance Advisory Group, Vietnam, provided only for essentially political and psychological warfare advisory personnel and prohibited their engagement in combat missions. Second, this new proposal would expose Chinese officers to combat, with the risk of their death or capture, and provide a ready-made situation for Chinese Communist charges of Nationalist Chinese military intervention. Of lesser importance was the fact that the officers association with US units would disclose their presence to news correspondents. Approval of such a request would also establish a precedent likely to encourage additional Chinese requests for a long-term commitment of more contingents, and might also tempt others to follow Nationalist Chinas example. The proposal clearly posed serious political risk and military burden to the United States without any tangible benefits.

The State Department agreed with General Westmorelands appraisal and hoped that the US Military Assistance Advisory Group, Republic of China, and the US Embassy at Taipei would let the matter drop before the State Department had to

[117]


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CHART 5 - REPUBLIC OF CHINA MILITARY ASSISTANCE GROUPS, VIETNAM



[118]


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reply officially. The Minister of Defense of the Nationalist government explained that the purpose behind the request was to reinforce the combat experience of the armed forces. When the chief of the US Military Assistance Advisory Group, Taipei, presented the reasons behind the US intent to refuse the request, the minister withdrew the proposal.

Arrangements between the governments of the United States and the Republic of China were formalized when USMACV signed a military working arrangement on 19 December 1968 with the Republic of China Military Assistance Advisory Group, Vietnam. Under the agreement Republic of China Military Assistance Advisory Group, Vietnam, was controlled and co-ordinated by the Free World Military Assistance Policy Council and command of the group was vested in the military commander designated by the government of the Republic of China. The United States would provide quarters, office space, and transportation within Vietnam.

During the period 1969-1970 the Republic of China assistance group continued to function as before with no significant changes in personnel strength. (Chart 5) After mid-1964, the Chinese group also provided $3 million in economic and technical assistance to Vietnam. As previously mentioned, Chinese technical personnel in the fields of agriculture, electrical power, and medicine were sent to Vietnam, while almost 300 Vietnamese technicians received training on Taiwan. During the Tet offensive of 1968, the Republic of China was one of the first countries to offer assistance, in the form of a gift of 5,000 tons of rice, to meet that emergency situation. In the way of other goods and materials, it provided aluminum prefabricated warehouses, agricultural tools, seeds, fertilizers, and 500,000 copies of mathematics textbooks.

點評

tabris102f  回答kof2100z的那篇文章  發表於 2013-7-6 20:45:15
tabris102f  不小心按到..... 這是前面說的國軍參加越戰的證明  發表於 2013-7-6 20:44:15
kds129  你給我這個淦麻..........回錯人了吧  發表於 2013-7-6 20:40:29
我家貓咪睡覺會打呼~~~

Rank: 4

狀態︰ 離線
43
發表於 2013-7-6 20:43:06 |只看該作者
kds129 發表於 2013-7-6 20:11  
300公尺移動靶
我真的沒聽說過
版上有在美軍受過訓練的人

你可以去問問看
美軍整體素質在九一一之後提升多少
甚至美軍在戰場醫療上也是這之後開始突飛猛進的發展(正確說法是在1993年十月三日的艾琳行動之後 TCCC委員會正式建立 不過真的有突飛猛進的發展是在反恐戰爭開打之後)

以訛傳訛是指這段
"看來你是不知道輸的原因
你知道當年國軍派出去的小組
他們狙擊槍用的是步槍彈嗎?
美國海關不給放行
輸成這樣我不意外
他們是在路邊槍店買的
步槍彈打500碼以上本來就這樣"
至於原因我已經貼出
麻煩細細參閱
我家貓咪睡覺會打呼~~~

Rank: 11Rank: 11Rank: 11Rank: 11

熱心參予論壇活動及用心回覆主題勳章 軍武十字勳章

狀態︰ 離線
44
發表於 2013-7-6 21:02:23 |只看該作者
tabris102f 發表於 2013-7-6 16:56  
首先
他們三百的移動靶都是軍方的基礎訓練
不是在民間受訓的



你說的不錯!
國軍的確是這樣~
我很認同

呵呵~
50口徑是由大會發送可以打到第4
那國軍自行花錢買的民間彈藥打成那樣
民間彈藥不見得隨隨便便就買的到比軍規好的
這你應該清楚~
他們身份行嗎?

第一次出國比賽   這些也是種教訓
沒必要將國軍貶的如此低落
如果接下來的比賽也都這樣  再說也不遲
美國武器:一拖二擋三不賣,尚有四換五拖六升級,怒了七八九回,十分無­奈

法國裝備:十賣九貴,被婊八萬七千六百五十四次,外加三給二送機密給中國,一等機­掰

Rank: 4

狀態︰ 離線
45
發表於 2013-7-6 21:03:11 |只看該作者
這大概是我進來SOGO以來發文發最多的時候
麻煩那幾個想砲我卻又火力短小、轉移話題的傢伙多讀點資料再來賣弄好嗎?
喔對了kof2100z
就是在說你啦
你就是其中一個拉
旁邊玩沙好嗎?

點評

查無此人物  有經驗受過完整訓練的老兵不留營.補進的新兵經驗銜接不上...這也是個很不利的因素  發表於 2013-7-6 22:46:13
tabris102f  今年退役了 另一個傘兵朋友也在近一兩個月退役  發表於 2013-7-6 22:30:04
tabris102f  剛進去時興致勃勃 可是.....國軍總是能磨去有心人的熱情  發表於 2013-7-6 22:29:40
查無此人物  他還在役?簽下去了?  發表於 2013-7-6 22:26:16
tabris102f  他在單位裡面會與其他幾個一起做訓練 而且引進很多國外的教範並且與同僚們辛勤的練習 只是裡面許多老屁股不是很喜歡他們的作法  發表於 2013-7-6 22:24:28
我家貓咪睡覺會打呼~~~

Rank: 4

狀態︰ 離線
46
發表於 2013-7-6 21:07:29 |只看該作者
kds129 發表於 2013-7-6 21:02  
你說的不錯!
國軍的確是這樣~
我很認同

美國民間的彈藥品質其實選高於軍用彈藥
要打得比軍用彈藥精度更高是很容易的
不過你忘記看我貼的文章囉
.50狙擊彈是由陸軍狙擊手學校提供的
所以不存在這種問題

國軍在出國比賽之前超囂張的樣子你又不是沒見過
這是官方的新聞報導
http://tw.news.yahoo.com/%E9%99% ... 406-090000-671.html
嘴巴說的多厲害
可是吃鱉之後就開始到處找藉口
如果他們輸了乖乖承認他們能力不足然後開始精進那我還沒話可說
偏偏卻是這種不願面對事實、阿Q式勝利法的思維讓我肚爛到極點
我家貓咪睡覺會打呼~~~

Rank: 11Rank: 11Rank: 11Rank: 11

熱心參予論壇活動及用心回覆主題勳章 軍武十字勳章

狀態︰ 離線
47
發表於 2013-7-6 21:14:05 |只看該作者
tabris102f 發表於 2013-7-6 21:07  
美國民間的彈藥品質其實選高於軍用彈藥
要打得比軍用彈藥精度更高是很容易的
不過你忘記看我貼的文章囉

我知道50口徑是大會給的
但我想表達的是
你在沒有預警情況下
沒有專門的文件
拿出一筆錢去槍店買專用狙擊彈
這你知道有難度吧!?
不可否認國軍應變不夠好

你都知道我們媒體這樣
那你為何要拿那篇出來說嘴?
你很在乎媒體嗎?
國軍沒承認能力不足嗎?
不願面對是你說的
啊Q式勝利是你打的
國防部有這樣講嗎????????
還是你從媒體上得知的?
你不是很討厭媒體這樣子嗎?
美國武器:一拖二擋三不賣,尚有四換五拖六升級,怒了七八九回,十分無­奈

法國裝備:十賣九貴,被婊八萬七千六百五十四次,外加三給二送機密給中國,一等機­掰

Rank: 4

狀態︰ 離線
48
發表於 2013-7-6 21:19:24 |只看該作者
kds129 發表於 2013-7-6 21:14  
我知道50口徑是大會給的
但我想表達的是
你在沒有預警情況下

那些文件一開始就有公布了
該文章也有寫出來
是國軍自己不按照遊戲規則走
那自然怨不得別人

那間媒體是隸屬國防部的
你可以上網找找事後國軍對於比賽落敗的說法
你就知道為什麼我這麼肚爛
我家貓咪睡覺會打呼~~~

Rank: 11Rank: 11Rank: 11Rank: 11

軍武十字勳章

狀態︰ 離線
49
發表於 2013-7-6 21:23:25 |只看該作者
老是要他人去上網找
自己不會上網查證再po出來喔
呵呵
認真點嗎

點評

紳士之道  奇怪?最喜歡叫別人自己去找的不就是你嗎?待人以嚴,律己以寬可不是好習慣喔.  發表於 2013-7-6 21:36:49

Rank: 4

狀態︰ 離線
50
發表於 2013-7-6 21:27:40 |只看該作者
chanmnwn 發表於 2013-7-6 21:23  
老是要他人去上網找
自己不會上網查證再po出來喔
呵呵

你有資格講嗎?
你那篇批評來台的顧問都是一群被淘汰的文章我已經貼出照片
原來在你眼中綠扁帽算是被淘汰人員?

網路上就找的到的資料自己不肯多動動手去找
要我提供?
我提供的還不夠多?
還有憑甚麼甚麼東西都要我給?
你是我的誰?
我有那個義務嗎?
在怎麼說我也比打了一連串廢文的你還認真
我家貓咪睡覺會打呼~~~
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